Designing beautiful brands for women wtih Jo Magliocco

Designing beautiful brands for women

This week I interview our web designer Jo from BrandingBabesCo to talk everything web design! We discuss pros and cons of squarespace, how to know when to hire a designer and how to price your services!

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Jenna Redfield is the leader of the Twin Cities Collective, the largest resource in the Twin Cities for bloggers, small business, entrepreneurs & creatives.

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Welcome to Twin Cities Collective podcast conversation with creatives. This week's episode I'm very excited about we have a friend of the Twin Cities Collective Joe, she helped design our website. So I wanted to have her on the podcast this month, we're talking about web design and branding. So Joe, if you want to introduce yourself to the Twin Cities Collective.

Jo Magliocco 2:18

Hi, thanks for having me, Jenna. I am Joe. And I am the co founder of branding babes. And we're a small design company. And we do visual branding for female entrepreneurs. And our focus is really on building a female community around startup business, and then offering resources and mentoring to that community. So awesome, because

Jenna Redfield 2:41

I know a lot of people struggle with websites, even myself, like, I don't know if you saw but this week, I actually redid my entire website. I Well, yeah, so I changed themes, which I hadn't changed since I started my website back in 2015. So I finally changed to a new Squarespace template. And it actually didn't take me as long as I thought it took me maybe like six or seven hours to actually just like, have to like it, because because when you change templates, you have to kind of change the content to just depending on what it is, I'm sure you deal with that all the time, the content is so important to have. And I realized I didn't have any of my stuff organized. And like all the you know, graphics and the images that I already had. So I had to go through my entire computer and try to find those images that I already had on the on the front page. So then I and then I had to find obviously stock photos that I do to use as well. So what is kind of your What is your kind of process when it comes to branding? Like what do you have to have before you even start a website?

Jo Magliocco 3:41

Yeah, so before we start a website, we always go in with the design phase and photography as well. First, we find that it provides a lot more direction to have that branding kind of visual piece done before you ever get started on the website. So that means the logo design means going through the color palettes. And actually, we create web styles as part of our brand style guides. So I already know the font pairings, the sizes, what the buttons are going to look like every single design piece before we start on the website. So I'm basically just plugging it into Squarespace. Yeah. And then we take professional photos so that we have that visual piece as well. And I actually designed my websites flat in Adobe Illustrator for ever starting to design with Squarespace we do mostly Squarespace design. And so before I go into Squarespace, I designed flat and illustrator, and then I base my template choice off of the functionality of the flat design that I've made and what I want, because changing templates can be there. Once you change it, it changes. It erases all of your style preferences, like your colors and everything. So you have to go through and enter all of those again.

Jenna Redfield 4:49

Yeah, that was, yeah, that was super, super time consuming. And then it was also a lot of things like I don't even know I had to keep looking back because I I was in the preview mode. And so I had to keep looking back to see What did it look like before and I kind of want to do something similar, but obviously, I have to change it up. What are your favorite templates for Squarespace that you like to

Jo Magliocco 5:09

use. So Lately, I've been loving the rally family and I call it a family because all the Squarespace templates are built into families. So really, it's probably one of the biggest template families there are like 12 or 15 templates in there that are all the same underlying structure, I tend to pick rally just I have no idea why just because that's the one I started with. And I just keep choosing it. But it probably has some of the most versatility out of their templates, as far as getting like folded banners and parallax scrolling and all the fun pieces that you have in your design. So based on my design style, that seems to be the go to, but I also really recommend Hayden for people that are starting out, because that also has really good versatility. But I base it all off of what I want my site to do, where the navigation goes where the logo goes, all the flat design. So I even have a spreadsheet that I use.

Jenna Redfield 6:00

Wow, I think Hayden's the one I picked. So that's good that you like that one. Yeah, it was a great, yeah, I was using Montauk. And I just hated how it didn't go all the way across the screen. So that was just there was a few different things about it that really frustrated me. And I've been frustrated for the last few months with it. And I'm I was even considering switching to WordPress just because I need more customization. And I don't know how to code. So then But finally, I was like maybe I'll just switch my template. And maybe it'll fix some of my issues. And I think it has fixed some of them. But obviously, there's still some things that are kind of missing. So do you do a lot of that custom side to how does that work for you when you have like an issue like that?

Jo Magliocco 6:36

Yeah, so because I designed flat sometimes I will put in things that Squarespace doesn't necessarily allow natively, but either through the developer mode or through CSS changes, we can always make those happen. I try to keep it mostly to CSS changes when I'm working with clients, because I don't want them to have a developer heavy site. There. They don't know how to change things if they need to. So I try to keep it very simple and working with clients so that they can't accidentally mess up our part of their site or so that they don't need my help every time they want to make changes. But usually a couple CSS tweaks will get the job done. And I think again, facing it facing your template decision off of the functionality you want really makes it easier. So I use the templates that I know have the most options where it can be forwarded, or you can have a shorter or you can have Yeah, scrolling, you know, all the customization.

Jenna Redfield 7:26

So did you ever do WordPress? or Why did you switch to Squarespace?

Jo Magliocco 7:31

Yes, I've worked with probably just about every platform you can name including, like blogger effect.

Jenna Redfield 7:37

Yeah, I think it does.

Jo Magliocco 7:38

Really like the whole alphabet soup of website building sites. And so I started working with Squarespace only about two years ago, and I had previously only been working with WordPress with clients. And I found that with Squarespace. Once they updated their sites a little bit I will say about five years ago, when they were newer, they really were not that customizable, and people didn't as much. They've always been blog friendly. But I found about two years ago, they really upped their game. And it was much easier for clients to understand the back end of Squarespace versus WordPress, I had a few too many late night phone calls with somebody who accidentally broke their entire site, or accidentally erased pages or something more dramatic happened. And it's just very and user friendly. from someone who's not accustomed to technology or web design for Squarespace makes a lot more sense for client work

Jenna Redfield 8:33

like so for example, for me, a lot of my stuff is the e commerce side. And that's the part I have the biggest issue with so what would what do you recommend to someone who has more of a complicated type of site like that isn't just like a basic website, just with your information. You don't have to have a lot of like the inner workings, I guess. But for mine, it's a little bit more complicated. So that's why I'm considering you know, potentially moving to WordPress at some point just because Squarespace has it limits. What what point do you think moving over is the right decision?

Jo Magliocco 9:03

Um, so far, I haven't really run into any issues with Squarespace commerce. I do like that as well, for bigger heavy commerce sites. I usually recommend going to Shopify and okay going to one of the other providers just because it's kind of a happy medium.

Jenna Redfield 9:17

Yeah, that's

Jo Magliocco 9:18

true. Because another thing that's really popular right now, is the square up payment mom more if you've seen those little white, yeah, tablet payment, things like this about every coffee store that you probably go into now. They're all using square up. And that integrates really well. And I think there's one other one as well, like big commerce maybe? Yeah.

Jenna Redfield 9:39

Yeah. Because I recently, just this past week found out that you can actually link every item you have in your shop through your Facebook page. Because before you had to have a Shopify account, and so I never was able to use that. And then I don't know if they changed it. But now like, I've just started adding stuff to my Facebook page shop. And now it links straight to my Squarespace site. So they can check out from there. And I was like Tesla, so awesome. So So do you deal with a lot of people that do e commerce? Or is it mostly just like a basic website that has information?

Jo Magliocco 10:09

I would say probably, I would say half and half, but it is probably more like 7525 most people are selling something, okay. Most people have even if they have an informational site, there's usually at least one service that they offer where they want people to be able to buy, or at least have a commerce lucky on their site. So most of the people we do at least teach them how to use Squarespace commerce, even if they aren't actively using it when we first build the website, especially like bloggers, who are maybe just kind of rebranding and starting over again, that are prepared to offer some sort of paid product. Yeah. So we'll teach it but they might not always be using it right away.

Jenna Redfield 10:45

So what's the hardest thing that people have to learn about the website? Once you build it for that? What do people struggle with the most that you can maybe give some advice on?

Jo Magliocco 10:54

Yes. So I think a couple of things that people struggle with is maintaining the SEO, making sure they actually fill out all of the SEO fields, which for me, I recommend using a checklist every time you go through something, whether it's adding a new blog post or adding a new page, making a checklist of all the steps that you need to take making sure the link is right, and the descriptions right, and making sure that's all updated for SEO. And then the second thing is probably just moving around design elements. I think that a lot of people understand Squarespace overall as a platform, but they have a hard time still designing an actual page. So I usually recommend that the designer or in my case myself creates a couple template pages that they can then duplicate when they want to create a new page instead of starting from scratch. Because starting from scratch, overwhelming. Yeah.

Jenna Redfield 11:46

And I think it saves you a lot of time to because I did that it saves a lot of time. I definitely did that when I was doing my website this past week, because I was like, Oh, I have this template now from this page. And then you just have to change the content versus changing the design, which I think makes it a lot easier. And now Squarespace actually has sort of templates in terms of like about page template, and they kind of are like put your image here and put your text here. So that's really a good feature, because a lot of actually helped me this week. Oh, I never thought to put it in this manner. I guess what kind of clients do you usually work with? Is it mostly small businesses or it's people that are just brand new to internet and they just don't know what they're doing. So our

Jo Magliocco 12:27

kind of bread and butter client is going to be a person who's either a solo printer, or a very small business owner with a micro business owner. And usually somebody who either has a basic site that hasn't been updated in a long time or doesn't have a site at all. And we really like to work with people that are newer to either the digital side or brand new to business and truly what we love, we love talking to other female entrepreneurs and kind of inspiring and mentoring as they go through the initial phases of launching their business. But we have worked with everyone from like a solo designer and small solo corner to a bigger hair salon or coffee shop, huh?

Jenna Redfield 13:06

Yeah, because everyone needs a website. You know?

Jo Magliocco 13:10

Everyone needs a website. Everyone needs some kind of internet presence.

Jenna Redfield 13:13

Yeah. So how do you guys get your marketing out there? What are you using to get new clients? And how does that kind of fit in with your branding and stuff?

Jo Magliocco 13:24

Yeah, so for us, a lot of it is networking and referral basis. We really care about building community, like I said before, and we even have an online community that we host on our site, where we have discussion forums, and resources and all sorts of things that we're building to be able to keep helping entrepreneurs, even if they're in the phase where they're not quite ready for branding, or can't afford it yet. And so it's through a lot of community building a lot of coffee dates, a lot of networking groups, I love going to networking groups and meeting new people. And then some through social media and our website, obviously, we do have a blog. And so we try to keep it updated with things that people might not be able to find in other places. So yeah, content rolling out,

Jenna Redfield 14:06

for sure. So maybe, um, one thing I would love to talk about is the website for Twin Cities Collective, which you helped us design. So how kind of I know we met, and I already had all the branding stuff from Ali, and she, I'm gonna be interviewing her on the podcast to about branding more than more of the actual branding side. But how like, what kind of did you think of when you got all that information? How did you even start the process of putting together the website?

Jo Magliocco 14:32

Yes. So usually, the first thing that I'll take into account is like what the primary function of a site is. And in your case, it starts out where the community is all about building community. It's all about like the Facebook group, getting people to engage and meet one another. So it was really about what the most important pieces were. And that's highlighting what the community is, and then how people can interact. And so based on that, I designed three different options, which you saw me up and three templates, but I then customized and then we were able to their move forward with the design a little bit, because I think once you know the function of the site, yeah, it becomes more about personal design preference, and really choosing kind of which style.

Jenna Redfield 15:14

Yeah, for sure. I remember that. Now I there were a few different menu layouts and different ways. And there's, and it's interesting because Squarespace has come out with new templates since I have put my site out like two years ago. So it was interesting to see all the new exciting ways to do that. And then there's, there's been times where I've emailed you and we change this, for example, I think on the blog on the podcast page, I couldn't everything was kind of weird. So how do you just go in and kind of update the website after you kind of get them going? Or how does that work with?

Jo Magliocco 15:44

Yeah, so usually a little bit of a fitting and like I said, usually it helps them there's a template paste that we can copy granted, with the Twin Cities Collective, it's hard because there's so much content, yeah, you don't necessarily have a template page that we're working on. Other than in the directories for most clients. And there's usually sort of a template page. But I do ongoing support for quite a while, where I'm there to kind of go in and tweak things here, their ad code in here, they're more move things around, if things do get a little bit messed up, depending on has to fit in a lot of times people run into a situation where after their websites designed, they come up with all this new content they want to add, and they don't know how to fit it in because the design was more minimal. And so you know, how do we fit in all this new content? Yeah, two weeks ago, but now has to somehow be incorporated into the design. That's kind of nice.

Jenna Redfield 16:33

So if somebody is doing this themselves in terms of the content part, what is all the content that you need? When you when you start a website? What's

Jo Magliocco 16:42

your list? It really depends on the business, I will say. But obviously the non negotiable are going to be a photo of the person who businesses and a contact form and at least a tagline or brief description of what they're offering. So those are kind of the three absolute non negotiable, if all you can do is throw up a one page landing page, that's what you need to have on it is the photo, the description and a way to contact you. And I think that's the easiest way to get started. And then from there, it can grow into helpful content that respective customers or clients would want to see a showcase of work. As soon as you have any type of work. If you're on the client services side, you've got to have a portfolio and then moving from there.

Jenna Redfield 17:27

Yeah, because it's, I think it grows over time, too. And you'll you'll see that your business might change. And so your website probably has to change to I heard a podcast a few months ago, I think was Jenna countries where she talked about the the worst mistakes you can make on a website. What are some of the ones that are your biggest pet peeves when you go to website? Oh, gosh, why are they doing this? What's what do you hate on certain websites?

Jo Magliocco 17:49

biggest pet peeves? Okay, number one is if a website is not responsive, and mobile friendly, that if it's not responsive, and mobile friendly, it does not belong in this day. Yeah, it's definitely time to update if things aren't responsive. That's probably one of the most important things that I can stress. Beyond that core quality of photos and design, we obviously take a lot of stock in photos and our business and realize how important the visuals are. If they're poor quality photos, it does not say anything good about the quality of the business or the investment that went into the branding. And then my probably other big pet peeve would be like distracting design. So too many colors. Yeah, too much text, just not a balanced, clean design. I really liked the minimalist site trend what's going on right now? I think you can basically never be concise enough when it comes to that information and attention span has gone way down true or reading web pages. So it has to cater to that that's so true.

Jenna Redfield 18:54

Yeah, cuz one thing that is a big thing for me in terms of weakness

Jo Magliocco 18:59

of mine is I really, I'd like to have a lot of stuff

Jenna Redfield 19:01

because I love the way things look. I'm not very much a minimalist in terms of design. So it but I know a lot of people that come to my website are so I need to reel it and I don't need all this stuff. Yeah. So is Is there anything that you would maybe recommend to someone starting in the website, maybe a online article to read or the website learn more about besides obviously, your your website, which you said you have resources on? Is there something that really has influenced you are going to be a YouTube channel or something that you like to watch were more about web design?

Jo Magliocco 19:28

Yeah. So when it comes to web design, I really think that the most helpful thing is to look at similar things in your specific industry, just because it varies so much wine industry, we can talk about a lot of trends and a lot of things that are going on, but when it comes down to it, it has to fit your clientele. And that's what matters. And so looking at competitors websites and seeing where they're doing well and where they're falling short, and really being mindful of analytics. If you're just starting out, it never hurts to look at some YouTube tutorials. But I do think that for the majority of work, it means going to other people's sites, using the view page source. really helpful tool. If you're looking at other sites, you can figure out what platforms they're being how their pages. And other

Jenna Redfield 20:16

I do that with? Well, I first use a plugin called built with which I don't know if you've heard of but it basically tells you is it Squarespace or is it WordPress? And then if I find out at Squarespace, I can look up to see what template they're using. There's a key or something I found a website where you can type in newsletters, this is what and but sometimes it's it could be one of these eight different ones. I don't know which one.

Jo Magliocco 20:36

Yeah, it can be tough. And then there's also when it's custom developed. To make it easier on one thing. There's also the Squarespace and block identifier plugin is great for when you're doing custom code, you hit it and it brings up the unique numbers that identify all of the blocks on your page. So you can target each one with code for style changes. But that also works because the second you get on any one site that it's built with Squarespace and you hit that button, those numbers will pop up so you know that they have a square space site. I will confess to one time when I learned that Squarespace had crashed and the website our website was down. I went and typed in as many URLs as I could possibly think of to see if they were built on Squarespace because interesting. And I've done the same with WordPress. Yeah. For certain hosting sites like for Blue Host IC.

Jenna Redfield 21:25

Yeah. Yeah, that's the one thing with Squarespace that does happen sometimes is it crashes compared to some of the sites. But

Jo Magliocco 21:32

I mean, it usually doesn't last very long. And it might crash a couple times I so I will say though it is has been more reliable. Yeah. hosting sites on WordPress, because they do go through separate host sites true. You have to make sure that you have a really good host. And they're also so far and Squarespace knock on wood. I haven't seen any incidents of site hacking.

Jenna Redfield 21:51

Oh, that's true.

Jo Magliocco 21:52

Super prevalent on WordPress.

Jenna Redfield 21:54

Yeah, I had a friend locally who told me she probably listen to this podcast. But she said that she got hacked a couple months ago on WordPress. And they I don't know she took her a long time to get it back. And they had to go through these security websites. And she had download all this stuff. I don't want to deal with that.

Jo Magliocco 22:12

We're working with a separate security site, a separate hosting site. Yeah, so complicated, giant disaster.

Jenna Redfield 22:19

I was using WordPress before from my personal blog. And I just switched my domain from Host Gator to Squarespace about two weeks ago, because I was just sick of paying someone else when I could just have it all in Squarespace and not have to worry about sending money to this other random upset that was had my domain. And so I know it's a little bit more expensive. But honestly, it's worth it for me for that convenience, more than anything. I mean, yeah, that the price is is definitely little bit more for to buy a domain and to host I think, then maybe like the $3 month WordPress hosting, but it's so much easier. I don't to worry about it. I know that I just pay and go, you know, so I think conveniently, it's worth paying for the Exactly. Squarespace. That's pretty much what the bargain is. And you know what ease of use the great back end for management. And that's pretty much what you're paying for. Yeah. And I think that people when I've used WordPress a lot in the past, and I it takes me so long to find things versus Squarespace. It doesn't. And it's very easy to figure it out. And so I think that's definitely a perk with Squarespace.

Jo Magliocco 23:25

And it's all universal to which means that they have helped forums and guides them to everyone in a really useful master usually working with the person that built your template.

Jenna Redfield 23:33

Mm hmm. And they also have a customer service, which most website hosts don't really, unless it's like WordPress doesn't really and neither do some of the hosting sites. So if you're lost, you're you're kind of screwed unless you know someone who understands like how WordPress works. But what I like about Squarespace is they actually do get back to you. I had a thing where I accidentally embedded something when I was supposed to just put the link. And so I had a video that didn't work and it was screwed up my whole site. And I was so confused. And I messaged them and they were it took them a while to figure out what I had done wrong. finally figured it out. Oh, this is what you do it straight away, it was cleared up. So that is the one nice thing about Squarespace

Jo Magliocco 24:12

they have great customer service, I pretty much count on the fact that their customer service will be just as attentive to my customers as I am. And that anyone who Google's a simple fix is going to be able to find the tutorial or the fix on Squarespace without a big headache

Jenna Redfield 24:26

for sure. So you actually have a business partner. So how did that kind of come about? And how do you guys kind of work together?

Jo Magliocco 24:33

Yeah, so my business partner, Amy is a super talented photographer, I absolutely love working with her. And we initially met because I was working more in the blogosphere. And I was looking for photographers always when it came to blog posts or working with bloggers, photos are always needed. So I met a couple local photographers, and through them I was introduced to Amy. And I found either with blogging or web design, or even consulting with marketing or other business aspects, it always comes down to the graphics at some point, that's a barrier that has to be crossed. And usually that includes the photography. So I was always wanting to work with photographers, Amy and I started working together on a couple different projects. And our work really flowed nicely together when we were combining her photography with my design. And so based on that, and based on our shared desire to really be helping the same clientele and the same kind of group of female entrepreneurs, were really able to find the spot where Hey, a business should be, you know, it kind of was very organic, in the creation of our business. And from there, we've just kept working together really fluidly to kind of push that common goal and to make some cohesive brands. That's awesome, because I

Jenna Redfield 25:53

don't see that a lot. Especially because you guys both live in the same area. Which is nice, because a lot sometimes I know if people who have a shared business, but one lives in Texas and one lives, you know in California or something and so they they're not even distantly near each other. So how so for your target market? Is it mostly people locally or is it Do you have other clients beyond Minnesota?

Jo Magliocco 26:19

Yeah, so it's mostly local focus right now because we do photography and that's it, we are able to work with someone anywhere, it just means that we have to contract a photographer and and that location. But right now our focus is mostly been on building the local community and working with local clients. Yeah, yeah, we really do like face to face meetings, sometimes it's very easy to fall into the trap of it's much easier to just get on a phone call, or Skype and do everything digitally. But especially clients who aren't as high tech really appreciate the in person meeting, we can get so much more done. And it's really more personal. And it's more fun.

Jenna Redfield 26:55

Yeah, that's the struggle I've had with my business is it's all digital and I sit down person today. It's always fun when I somebody local messaged me, Lisa can actually work with someone like that I can see and I've met before, I think that's super important. So speaking of local stuff, what are your favorite things to do around town? I know you live pretty close to me in Hopkins area. What what are your favorite things to do?

Jo Magliocco 27:16

Yeah, so I have a huge outdoors junkie. So I actually love spending any time in local parks going on hikes, basically anything I can do to get outside, even if it's like working out on the patio for the day. So anything to get outside, anything to go to like state parks, especially I love the Minnesota State Park System, always driving out to those on weekends. And then also just kind of dining out and getting to see people out in the area and Hopkins in Minnetonka. Yeah, had a lot going, by the way. Yeah. And then during the week, we basically look at people's organic. That's definitely one of the favorite places to go any of the location. Yeah,

Jenna Redfield 27:55

I still haven't been there. And I know I need to go. I know it's it's on my list. I haven't gotten around to it. But I definitely need to go there to do me up. Awesome. Yeah, that would be really fun, actually. So going back a little bit to Squarespace and branding in general, if somebody is maybe do it themselves, or what what's the point when they need to hire a designer? I guess it's kind of my question. So a lot of people maybe get stuck. I don't wanna do this myself. But at what point do you see hiring someone to help you.

Jo Magliocco 28:23

So I pretty much think from the get go, it's important to work with someone else. Not necessarily, because you won't have the skill or talent with most people to do it themselves. A lot of people can DIY, the problem is getting it out of their own head. And so being able to come up with something that really relates to their clientele and their business instead of their personal preferences. Because that is the number one thing that designers have to contend with is the client saying, you know, my favorite thing is being really sarcastic. And my favorite color is teal, and working with a super corporate client of brightness, he'll accent on your website, or really sarcastic copy isn't going to do the track true. So it's a matter of kind of really putting your personal preference aside and having that person to guide you towards the discovery of what's going to work for your clientele and your business. And I think also, if they're DIY, at a point where either the technical piece has gone beyond what they're comfortable with, or the time has gone beyond what's reasonable. So if you're trying to DIY Squarespace site, and you've spent maybe five weeks trying to figure it out, it's time to get somehow Yeah, it's a lot faster, more cost effective. It can oftentimes hurt a business to spend too much time getting stuck in the weeds with things like yeah, if they're trying to DIY versus getting a professional.

Jenna Redfield 29:51

I feel like I'm sometimes at that point. And I should I hire someone, part of me is like, well, I don't know if I can afford to hire and is that design x. And I could just spend the time on myself, I do my off hours. I don't know, I feel like it's hard for people to sometimes justify justify

Jo Magliocco 30:04

startup other people. And it's also one of the best decisions you can ever make. And so I think it's finding the people that really are there to serve the startup community. And it is a really hard piece to find right now. Because a lot of people are charging a lot more than what somebody who is a brand new starter can afford. And so that's why we do try to cater to businesses that really are brand new and have options for people who are just someone who said, you know, I'm going to a conference in a week. And I can't afford a big project right now. But I need a landing page, business cards printed and then need a headshot for my LinkedIn profile, as I'm at this conference. Next thing to point people to

Jenna Redfield 30:46

Yeah, so I posted in the Facebook group that video and I know you commented on that, what was your thoughts on that whole pricing thing where sometimes you can charge more if it's faster, because it's worth more than taking five weeks? So what's your thoughts on that? Right.

Jo Magliocco 30:59

And so that was it was a designer talking about pricing and talking about using an hourly versus just charging a flat rate. And he was saying always charge a flat rate, because there's so much that goes into the pricing, and you shouldn't be hurt by the fact that you're talented and fast at designing things. Basically what he's saying, it shouldn't hurt your bottom line to be able to deliver faster to people because that can be a benefit. Yeah. What I can say the most about that video is watch the full video, the full video is really good, I think that piece is very valuable, it can be super important to deliver fast and quality work, versus drawing it out for an hourly price. Yeah, you package all of our pricing. So obviously I subscribe to that flat rate idea. The other piece of that video, if you watch the full one, which I think is almost more profound or more important, is he talks a lot about the risk of bad design. And when you're paying for good design, what you're paying for is to mitigate the risk of bad design. And to a business owner, the work that they're paying for is all about how much it's worth to them to mitigate that risk. So I think he brings up an example, it's a bigger company example. And I forget which one but I always use that as FedEx as an example. So if FedEx had a person redesigned their logo, and they redesigned it badly, and it offended someone, something was quite not quite right with it, it wasn't good design. Mm hmm. And they would have spent millions of dollars printing it on trucks, on planes on boxes on papers everywhere, that's going to be a really expensive problem for them. So there's a really high risk when they're doing design versus a small company. If you think about their printing budget or their use, they're probably going to use their logo or use their web design in a much smaller scale, fewer people are going to be looking at the website, fewer, they're probably only going to spend, you know, maybe 40 or $50, once in a while to buy business cards with their logo, and maybe you know, a custom pen here or folder there. But they're not printing it in that many places. So their risk is a lot lower. So the risk that what they have to pay to mitigate the risk of bad design? Yeah, lower, that's true what a company would have to pay. So when you think about what brand branding and design and going through all that is worth to them, is going to be a lot lower than what it's worth to bigger companies, regardless of whether it's hourly rates or flat rate. So instead of pricing it based on the designers talent or experience, its price based on the value to the client.

Jenna Redfield 33:43

Yeah, I think that makes sense. Because I had never heard of that before until this this past maybe month or so when I started looking into what value based pricing is. And it's a whole concept I didn't even realize, you know, and so corporate America is taught or we know and just general, it's like you pay our bills. And that's, you know, that adds up to what you make a year. But when you have your own business, if you can kind of change it and kind of price how you want as long as people understand it. I feel like that's kind of where you have to kind of figure out

Jo Magliocco 34:14

that side of it. Right? Absolutely.

Jenna Redfield 34:17

So awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me, we're coming to the end of our interview, I just want to let you know that Joe has a website. So what is your handles and all that stuff so that we can get ahold of you and follow you on all of the social medias?

Jo Magliocco 34:30

Yeah, so our websites brandy maids, co CIO dot CEO now calm. And then our handle and everything is also either branding makes co or just branding babes. co so on Instagram, I believe it's Same as Facebook.

Jenna Redfield 34:44

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Joe, if you guys want more information on resources on web design, how to you know if you guys want a higher branding bids help you with their website, make sure to go to their website to learn more. But thank you guys so much for listening this week. And I'll talk to you guys next week. Bye. Thank you guys so much for listening to the conversations with creatives podcasts from the Twin Cities Collective. Make sure to head over to iTunes to subscribe to this podcast so you won't miss an episode. New episodes come out every single Monday. And also make sure to give us a review so that we can get more people listening and so that we can give you even more episodes of the podcast. Make sure to also check out our website Twin Cities Collective com where you can learn more about us join our Facebook group join our online business and blogger directories as well as learn more about events that are coming up that we host every single month. Thank you so much again to Allison hall for creating our awesome podcast cover photo as well as Nikolai hi less for the use of the song in the intro and out Joe. Thanks again guys for listening and I'll see you next week. Bye.