Our Journey to 10K Followers

Our Journey to 10K Followers

Journey to 10K Followers

I recommend creating an LLC (check out our podcast with Wynne on the legalities of that)

https://www.twincitiescollective.com/conversations-with-creatives-podcast/2017/7/31/episode-22-an-interview-with-wynne-reece-attorney-at-reece-law-the-creatives-counsel

I also recommend using a CRM system like Dubsado to organize leads & have contracts, payments as well as proposals & questionnaires.

https://www.twincitiescollective.com/conversations-with-creatives-podcast/2017/7/31/episode-21-accounting-bookkeeping-software-recommendations

Top 10 visibility tips

  1. Network, Network, Network. Listen to our last few podcast episodes, especially Lanet & Jennifer’s

  2. Social Media (Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Pinterest) Canva is your friend!

  3. Email Marketing & Sales Funnels

  4. Facebook Groups

  5. Podcast Guests

  6. YouTube Videos & Facebook Live

  7. Instagram, Instagram, Instagram

  8. Brand Collaborations & Sponsorships

  9. Blogging! & overall website information

  10. Coffee Chats

Facebook groups I love

Rising Video Rockstars

Savvy Business Owners

Think Creative Collective

Fueled with Heart

Rising Tide Society (and local chapter)


Jenna Redfield is the leader of the Twin Cities Collective, the largest resource in the Twin Cities for bloggers, small business, entrepreneurs & creatives.

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y name is Jenna Redfield, and we are back with another solo episode. I do these about once a month. And I've decided to do them every first

Tuesday of the month, because our podcasts

come out on Tuesday if you didn't know. And so this podcast episode is going to be about a lot of things. But mostly it's going to be

talking about visibility, launching your business, freelancing as well as some tips for college students. Because it is that time of year when people are graduating. So I thought I'd share a little bit about my story and how I got to where I am after graduation. Because I think that I'd haven't really talked about it super much on anything. And it's been a really, really, really crazy ride. So I thought I would share a little bit about that. And some of the tips that I've learned over the last, I guess four years since I graduated. But I did want to talk a little bit about a few things. First, the fact that we hit 10,000 followers on Instagram last week, we was amazing. It's something that I've been wanting to have happen for a long time, mostly because we get the swipe up feature now on Instagram stories, but also just hitting that milestone is a huge thing. And I want to thank everyone for following us if you're not following us just type into this collective on Instagram, we had a really, really fun party, and we got a video back as well as photography. And we are going to be relaunching our website. So that's going to be coming soon. And I'm so so excited. Thanks again to the people that helped with that. I've shouted a lot, a lot of them on Instagram. But I really want to shout out Melanie, from my ability designs, she helped me do the entire party, and she will be helping us with our website. So just quick shout out to Melanie. So a few things I want to talk also is I actually have recently launched a new business. Some of you guys know I used to do, I still do stock photography and video. But really, I've focused now on doing consulting and helping people set up their systems, whether it's a new website, their social media, or maybe a YouTube channel, what I'm going to be doing is helping individuals, just one on one, do some training and teach them how to use things give some of my behind the scenes secrets as well as just things I've learned over the years. I mentioned last week on the podcast with Kylie I spent six months learning how to use WordPress back when I was kind of in between jobs. And so I felt like I haven't had a lot of experience and time learning different programs systems. And so basically, if you have any questions about that, go to my website. So go to Jenna Redfield, calm forward slash setup, dash, your dash systems or just go to the main menu. So I'm kind of like slowly launching that and getting some clients and getting just just getting a few. So almost like beta testers to see kind of what people really want to learn from me. So if you are interested it make sure to check that out. But that is just something I wanted to mention, because I haven't really talked about it yet on here, it's going to be a slow like launch, I'm not really planning on doing a big launch, I just kind of want to check and see what people really want, especially because what I realized over time is I love teaching more than I love doing. And so for me helping people one on one, and then letting them learn it themselves is better for me than doing it for them. So if you're someone who likes to do it yourself, this is definitely the service for you. Because I can teach you how to do it yourself. I'm definitely very resourceful. And I feel like I like knowing how to do things myself, and a lot of people do as well. So a few things I'm gonna talk about also. So this is this new month is on freelancing. So for people that basically are starting a business, and they're basically like a consultant or someone that is just hired per project or is kind of hired as a contractor. We're going to be talking about that talking about side hustling as well as just kind of launching your business. We've done so many podcast episodes about launching businesses that I wanted to talk about some of them. First of all, the podcast I did with Winnie last summer on creating an LLC, if you haven't listened to all the she's our lawyer here at Twin Cities collective, she helped me file our LLC. It's something that I think you guys should check out, I will put all the links to what I mentioned in the show notes. But if you haven't listened to that podcast, please do. So right now. Or after you listen to this one. I also recommend listening to I did another podcast on using a CRM system. So I talked about my favorite one, which is dub Sato. And what that does is allows you as a freelancer or contractor to organize all of the leads that you have all of your contracts, payments, as well as proposals and questionnaires. So this isn't really the place where you can go to kind of organize your life and not keep it in your email. I'm not gonna be talking about that as much today or even this month, but I've done that before in the past. So definitely check out those two episodes. This month. If you haven't, I didn't really want to have to redo those episodes and talk about them again, because they're already out there in the universe. So I kind of wanted to start a little bit with kind of my journey to like, I guess my journey to 10 K, which is kind of silly to call it that. But I didn't start out this way. I definitely felt like I started from the bottom Started from the bottom now here, you know, that kind of thing. So I graduated college four years ago. I graduated in 2014. And my major was communications, which is very broad major, I was kind of focused on video. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do halfway through college, I decided I didn't want to do video, I had moved to LA and I had done an internship and taking classes out there and realized, you know what? I'm not sure if there's like even a video market in the Twin Cities, what what am I going to do like I can't find a job in that. So I basically switched my senior year to wanting to do social media marketing. And this was back before like Instagram was really a thing it was it was still pretty new. Twitter was really the big deal. And Facebook, obviously. But when I started looking for jobs, I didn't have any experience at all. I had no network. And I just didn't really know what where to go. So for that first year, I got a job basically being a telemarketer. I thought it would look good on my resume, because it said market research assistant. And I was like, Oh, I can say marketing as part of my job description. But it was really more just talking on the phone, which I really, really hated, kind of talks about that a little bit last week on the podcast. So I did that for a while, then I quit, and I had no job. Besides like a really part time one at lifetime fitness. I started working for my dad. And again during that time was when I really started to learn more about blogging, and learning more about building websites. For the last year, I'd started doing video being a wedding videographer as well as launching my YouTube channel, which again, I kind of did just because I love to make videos, but I never really learned about the business side or even the networking side of blogging. And so I started going to my very first networking events. And then another thing I started doing was doing some informational interviews, and I kind of I mentioned this before, but I met with a few people that I'm still friends with. And they kind of helped me at the very beginning of my journey. And I really appreciate them, they weren't that much older than me. So that's something I kind of thought I would share is, you know, find people that are not that much further along than you maybe one or two years out of college, because they're way more willing to meet with you because they're kind of still starting out too. But they might help you get a leg up in your journey. I ended up one of those people helped me get a job, that I'm not going to name names or anything, you could probably just check out my LinkedIn. But I got a job. And it only lasted for six weeks because they unfortunately ran out of money. So I was you know, devastated. I had gone through so many rejections from jobs, I had probably had five or six full time job, were interviews where I got rejected, or I was like number two or number three. So I didn't I wasn't a finalist. And this has happened to me so many times that I just got used to not getting the job. And so when I got this job, I was so excited. But then the fact that it only lasted for six weeks, I was again devastated. And I just was more scared of what it would do to my, to my resume because it just showed that I wasn't going to be able to be there that long. And I wasn't you know, maybe they thought I was fired, which I was not I was laid off because of money stuff. And then a few weeks later, I somehow miraculously got a job working for a moving company and I worked there for about a year and a half. And that was during that time was when I started Twin Cities collective during that time was when I started my other business. And that was when I started networking. And so basically, the last like three years or two years was really when I started finding myself and finding where I was strongest, which is obviously social media networking and all the stuff digital. So I just wanted to share that real quick, my story, but one of the things that I realized that still impacts me to this day is I feel like I had PTSD after graduating like I was so. So like not used to not being in school for you know, you're in school for 16 years, 17 years of your life. And all of a sudden you're on your own. And I don't think that colleges do as good of a job with helping people through that transition, because it is very scary. All of a sudden you are out in the world. And you know, I'd had jobs in college, but I never, you know, done a full time job. And I think that the impact of all of the rejections I had after college really still impacts me to this day, and to my self worth. And I think that for the longest time I had imposter syndrome, which if you don't know, that basically means you're doing a job but you feel like you're not supposed to be there or you're not like a good enough to be there. And so you just feel like an imposter. And so something that I started doing is just feeling like I never was supposed to be there. And I always felt like I was about to get fired. Like I always felt like never safe in what I was doing. And so one thing I started doing was, you know, finding my own jobs like, like looking for, for projects that I could work on that weren't long term, because I probably I couldn't get fired from them. Again, I've never been fired, but I, you know, just was afraid I was going to. So I did want to talk about that a little bit just knowing that like, a lot of people feel that way. You know, a lot of people out of college are, you know, looking for jobs, and they have no experience. And I think that the best thing to do is to start when you're in college, start a business, or start you know, a blog, start being on social media start now. Because by the time that you graduate, you will have more than a resume. I did not do that I did this a month after I graduated I started doing that night went Oh crap, I wasted all my time in college when I could have been building up a brand by the time that I left. So that is one thing I really regret doing. I think I could have been a lot further now if I had done that. But at the same time, I think my journey was supposed to happen the way it did, just because I feel like I have them. I have more empathy now for people in college as well as like recent grads, I really think that a lot of people, I don't understand networking. We talked about this last week on the podcast. And so I definitely heard two weeks ago sorry with Jennifer and Lynette, but I really did not understand out of college what networking was. And I tried to take some classes on it. But the people weren't very good at it at teaching me but it was really through just doing it. You know, I had to I had to learn how to do it myself. It wasn't just somebody telling you what networking is you have to actually experience it for yourself. So one thing I did want to talk about, I'll talk a little bit more about some advice for graduating seniors. But I did want to talk about some visibility tips as well. Because this could apply to anyone, whether or not you're coming out of college or you're launching a business, I really wanted to talk about 10 different visibility tips I have, and just how I've gotten to where I am today. It's not just social media. But it's also other things that I've done that I think have helped all these together have gotten me to where I am. So I'm just mentioned this one. But the first tip is network network network. If you listen to last week's episode with Kylie or the one before with Linda and Jennifer, please do so if you haven't. They're all about networking and the power of building your community. Basically how referrals work, I just think that this is the best way to get known in whatever field you are. And this can be both online and in person. I personally prefer in person because I think people once they meet me, I think people understand me better. I feel this way about other people as well. I feel like once I meet them, I understand them, and can kind of sense what their personality is like just from, you know, a brief interaction, but going to networking events, going to masterminds, you know, just even if it's just a fun social event or a happy hour, you know, make sure to just check them out and maybe meet one or two new people. I know it's a lot of time intensive things. But honestly, it's worth it in the end when you meet someone in person. So that's the first visibility tip for a business who's wanting to, you know, get known. Number two is obviously social media. I'll talk a little Instagram done the tip line. But I didn't want to talk about some of the other networks including Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook and Pinterest. I just went to a conference this past weekend. And I'm going to be talking about that next week on the podcast with Erica. We went to she's building her empire in Milwaukee. But one of the speakers talked about Pinterest and I, I was on Pinterest back in college, I was in the beta test group, or I guess when it was in beta. And I've been using it for many years I was very heavy user of Pinterest, probably the first like three years it was around. And over time, Instagram has kind of taken over my interest. But Pinterest is great for getting your blog posts out there and getting traffic to your website. That's really what Pinterest is, is a is a search engine and not a social media platform. And that's something that a lot of people think Pinterest is social media. It's not it's a search engine. It's exactly like Google, but just more of a visual way to get traffic, obviously, Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter. LinkedIn is great for people that are, you know, trying to find a job. Also just building your professional network. And then Twitter, I guess it just depends on how you use Twitter. But I've made a lot of more friends that way, I would say that even business connections, especially local people, and I feel like you can just kind of jump on there, especially the people that are pretty active. I've also use live Twitter feeds at events like social media breakfast where they do a hashtag, and they can kind of follow people that way, I recommend doing that. If you haven't before, I create every single graphic in Canada for all of those, so you can kind of resize them depending on what platform you're using. That is my tip for that. Um, alright, so the next visibility tip, how to get yourself and your business out there. Email marketing and sales funnels. We talked about this a couple weeks ago with LED Eric on the podcast. But email is a great way to get directly into the face of people that you are wanting to, I guess follow you, you know, get setting up a lead magnet, getting some emails, getting people to sign up to hear about whatever you're doing, as well as setting it up so that it's automated with the funnel, so that you just can you set it up once and then you add people to it. And then every you know day or two days or week, they get a new email that you don't even have to worry about. I love automation, because it makes it so much easier for me to not spend time doing it. Another thing email marketing, I think has helped me see is that the more you're in my my inbox, the more I recognize your name. And so even if you don't read the emails, or if people aren't reading your emails, they'll still see your name a lot, which helps with your visibility and knowing who you are. So if you want to send out at least one email a week, I recommend it just to get that name recognition and be like, oh, wow, this person is on top of it. They're sending out emails every week. So that's number three. All right, number four Facebook groups this a couple years ago, I would say Facebook groups was by far not only my biggest refer for my business, but also where I learned the most. I do think that to this day, it's still one of the best places to learn about different different topics, different things that you might not know about. My favorite groups have changed over time. But a few of them that I still love are savvy business owners. Think Creative Collective, rising video rock stars, I always love rising tide society, that was one of my favorites. It's gotten a little bit too big and a little bit too wedding centric for my taste. But there is a local chapter, which I am going to be going to next month. They have monthly meetups, there's so many Facebook groups out there that have been super, super, super, super, super helpful over time. And I think that they're a great way to show your expertise. So like answering questions people ask if you know the answer. And then if they allow it to post your link that has have gotten probably 80% of my clients, I'm not even getting Facebook groups are literally where people find out about my business. Plus just having your name in there. People recognize you. That's how a lot of people, I was funny. I was at this retreat or this conference last week, and I met a girl who I've been Facebook friends with for years, and we had met in a Facebook group and we finally met she knew exactly who I was because she had she'd seen me post. So you never know the power of Facebook groups. All right, number five being a podcast guest. You know, people are always looking for podcast guests. And honestly, it's for me, one of the easiest ways that I remember people is if they've been a podcast guest, I listened to a lot of podcasts. And I always remember the people because they go really deep into who they are. And if they're interesting, I'll remember them. Especially if I end up following them on social media after the podcast episode is over. I usually listen to podcast episodes that have something that I'm interested in, or I something I don't know much about. I started listening again to Melissa Griffin's podcast just this week. It's called I think it's called pursuit with purpose. And oh my gosh, I fell in love with it again. And I just She is such great guys on there. And most of the guests I had heard of because she interviews really big people like Murray folio and James Wetmore and just people that I had heard of before. But you know, if you've never heard of them, it's a good way to really solidify your knowledge of them. So if you're trying to get more visible in your space, find podcasts in that kind of demographic, and then ask if you can be a podcast guests. One thing I recommend doing is we have people actually come to me and say, Can I be a guest on the podcast, and I always go, I personally like to have people on the podcast that I've met before. So usually, my response is, hey, start coming to some of our events. And we'll see what will happen. Personally, I prefer to have a little bit of a knowledge about the person. But you know, I always love seeing people that are interested in being on the podcast. However, again, as I said, there's a lot of people that want to be on for the wrong reasons. And I usually end up asking people that I think are going to be good guests, just because I feel like I'm in the driver's seat. I don't feel like I've been asked or coerced into having someone be on the podcast. But I do like knowing that people are willing and interested in being guests. So maybe reaching out or starting to be kind of friendly with people that run podcasts that you like, and then over time eventually ask if you can be a guest or that kind of thing. I think just going right out and asking to be on someone's podcast, sometimes isn't the right way to go about it, but definitely start interacting with them. And then maybe after you know, a few months, say, hey, if you ever need someone to talk about this, I'd love to talk, I would be way more willing to talk to that person if they've been really interacting and part of the group for a while. So that is something I really recommend if you're a new business, especially an online business, is to try to be on a few podcasts. Another one is YouTube videos and Facebook Live. So part of this thing we talked about, at this conference was doing a lot of live videos, including Facebook and Instagram lives. But honestly, YouTube is just as good. I love YouTube, because you can edit it and you can actually you know, repost it places. But Facebook Live is another great example of showing up on people's timelines a lot, whether you're in their group, or they're just posting on a page, just seeing someone's face or seeing that they're going live on either Instagram or Facebook allows people to help remember your name, and who you are, and all that stuff. Because honestly, the reason you're doing visibility is to have people remember your name. And I think that I remember people's names because I remember seeing them certain places, or being interviewed or whatever. And I think that that's what you need to do as well. All right, number seven, is Instagram, Instagram, Instagram. So Instagram is obviously something that's really big here at MCs collective, it's something I do a lot, I do a lot of classes on them. We've had four sold out classes on Instagram, and I'm probably going to be doing some more in the future. And I will be launching our online course in the next few months, probably in the next three months, I will be launching an Instagram online course I'm super excited, just got to get that get that together. And so Instagram is a great way to share who you are, you know, with the stories as well as the main account, you know, getting a photographer or getting some good photography for your Instagram really helps you stand apart in your niche. Because you can see that it's you know, it looks good, it was planned out, I tend to remember people that have better photography and use our hashtag. That's another thing is using the right hash tags. I tend to remember people that use onesies collective hashtag, because they use a lot, and I see their face, they tend to post a lot of pictures of themselves. So when I see them in public, I know who they are. That's just another tip, just if you're trying to get on to this collective radar, is to use our hashtag. But if you're trying to get everyone else's, just make sure to tag people on their Instagrams, you can do that within the photo, you know, just just trying to get people's attention, you know that. That's the hard part about Instagram is everyone shouting, but you have to show it in the right direction and find the people that are are looking for you, as well as you are looking for, you know, viewers. So Instagram, if you want to come to one of our workshops in the future, I'll let you know when that's going to be but we are going to be posting our online courses soon. Alright, next brand collaborations and sponsorships. So another way that some people get visible is working with people that are similar to them. So maybe someone who has similar number of followers as you it's a very easy way to kind of cross pollinate your followers. So a lot of YouTubers do this where they you know, they do a collab. And it's basically in order to get your audience to find out about somebody else while their audience is finding out about you. This has been happening since the dawn of the internet, I don't even there's so many examples I can think of but you know, if you haven't tried it yet, reach out to someone and say, Hey, would you like to do like a brand swap or, you know, trade Instagram stories for the day, or do some sort of video or something and just kind of talk about that person while they talk about you and make sure that it's equal. So it's not like one person is doing more work than the other. And another thing I want to talk about is sponsorship, so if you are if you have the money to do so, and you want to be a sponsor something maybe sponsored event or sponsor a podcast episode, that way, people that are listening or going to events, see your name, I remember people that do the food at events a lot because I see the name of their event, or see the name of their business at an event. And then I follow them on Instagram. And then sometimes I asked them to do food at our events like mini spoons as an example. She's been part of the MCs collective for a long time, I watched her do a Kickstarter, and then asked her to do food at our fitness event. So, you know, I had heard about her through her being at other events that I had been to and trying some of her stuff. So you know, like just being able to put yourself out there volunteering. Another example is we just had our video done for Twin Cities collective. And like, you know, that was a somebody volunteer to do that. It was Jared from Waterman. And now I think a lot of people have found out about him and are now like looking to hire him. So you never know. Just putting yourself out there and wanting to work with other brands and just, you know, putting your putting your name out there, having them promote you, if you offer it for free. I think that's worth it. If it's a larger brand, you know, like Twin Cities collective or, or any one of the other brands around town. That's another way to get yourself a little bit more visible from a marketing standpoint. All right, two more number nine, blogging and overall website information. I don't really talk about blogging as much on here as I used to just because I've been kind of doing research and seeing is blogging still like a thing that people do to market themselves. Social media has really changed how blogging works, especially the last 10 years, I mean blogging, back in the day, it used to just be text only. And then like WordPress, blogger, blogspot, Weebly, all of these different platforms started coming up. And then blogging became a thing. But then all of a sudden, you know, Instagram, and Twitter and all these things became almost like micro blogging platforms. And a lot of those blogs started kind of shrinking a little bit. But I do still think that blogs are important, especially for SEO, and traffic. So if people are searching for something specific, like on Pinterest or on Google, and they find you, and you have your whole website set up to be able to easily have them follow you, it's a great way to get new people coming to your website. For example, I have a blog post that I wrote maybe a year and a half ago about video, and I get so much traffic from it, even though I'm not doing that anymore. I'm trying to kind of convert this blog post into having people sign up to work with me where I teach them how to edit, which is something that I'm going to start doing. So if you are interested in learning how to edit video, that is going to be one of my new services is one on one, education. But you know, this whole blog post was basically like, hire me to create your stuff for you. But now, I'm going to be changing some of the wording so that it gets people to actually hire me, instead of hiring me for the educational part of it. So having a website presence is so important. If you want people to take you seriously, I don't trust businesses that only have a Facebook page or just have an Instagram, I want to learn more about them, especially on their about page or on a services page. And so having a blog or having a website is really important for not only visibility, but also for understanding your business and the legitimacy of it. So that's another thing to make sure to have his website.

Finally, coffee chats, which kind of goes along with networking, but you know, just meeting someone one on one for coffee and not having it be where you learn from them. But literally just there to meet each other and to just, you know, talk about, you know, maybe struggles you have or just maybe it has to be not a session where one person's talking and teaching the other one. I think that that becomes more of a consulting session versus a coffee chat. I do actually online coffee chats. Sometimes in some of the Facebook groups I'm in or I just Skype with someone I've done probably, oh, at least 15 of those over the years. And it's just really nice to meet people from maybe other parts of the country. And one of the groups that does a lot is called field for heart or field with heart is one of the Facebook groups I'm in and they do coffee chats a lot. So if you're looking for that, it's mostly women. But that's another thing that you can do. So coffee chats is the final visibility tip I have. So I will put all of these visibility tips in the description of this podcast episode. But I just kind of wanted to run through that because I think it's really important to quickly just tell you guys how I've gotten more visible online. These are really basic tips. If you again, if you want more, one on one coaching, let me know, go to my website, because I'm going to be doing that a lot more now is kind of my plan for my business moving forward, I did want to talk again about college students. So going back to that, if you're in college, you know, start, start now start building it now. Start with your informational interviews, start with building up your brand. Another thing I recommend is become fans of the companies that you want to work for. So start interacting with them now whether it's on social media, or you know, going to some of their events, if you want to work for them. Make sure that people know who you are. So then when you actually apply for a job, you are actually people remember you. I think that resumes and cover letters are important. But there's a lot more things beyond that, that you need to get hired. One of the things I never realized was you're much more likely to get hired if you have a foot in the door having in terms of knowing someone at the company, because people get so many you know resumes sent to them, and yours will probably look just like the next person. But if you know someone there, you will get a much, much, much, much higher chance of getting a job. One tip I had was both of the jobs I had before this one with the one that I got let go after six weeks as well as the one I was at for a year and a half. Neither of them had a job listing. Neither of them were actually looking for someone, they just heard about me and said I want to hire that person, because they do social media. And that's what we needed. So you know, it's funny, because both of those jobs also didn't really have a job description because they weren't expecting me to come on board. But you know, I got jobs with them anyways. So just talking to businesses and sharing what you do, you might just get a job offer or get a contract or get, you know, some sort of deal with them. And you never know. So if you especially if you're someone who's looking a little bit more to freelance and do more contract work, seriously, just talk to people because a lot of the times they don't realize that they might need you until you tell them what you do. So that's really all I want to talk about today. Just a few tips. Again, freelancing is our topic this month. So I'm going to be talking to maybe a few freelancers are people that are, you know, doing maybe contracts, side hustling, there's a lot of people that are doing that. So I'm really excited. And we might have just a few other random people on this month just because this topic is just kind of really not very specific. And so there's a few people I've just been wanting to interview over the last couple months that I'm like maybe I just interviewed them this month doesn't have to always fit with the topic at hand. So make sure to look out for those again, every week we have a new episode on Tuesdays. If you haven't subscribed to this podcast, make sure to do so we are on almost every podcasting app available. And we also released video podcast with our guests every week as well. So that's always going to be on our Facebook group will also be launching our YouTube channel with all of those episodes. Soon. I just have to get around to it. Um, but yeah, so thanks guys so much for listening today. Again, make sure you subscribe, and I'll talk to you next week.

Thanks for listening to the Twin Cities collective podcast with Jenna Redfield. Make sure to click subscribe if you haven't already. And make sure to leave us a review on iTunes. Thanks again for Ian at Studio Americana for producing this episode, as well as Melanie Lee for designing the podcast art. And thanks to Nick like headless for the use of the song in the intro. intro. Thanks so much again and I'll see you next time.