An open discussion on Diversity, Cancel Culture, #METoo, Political Correctness & More
On this week’s episode, we have an open dialogue with Leah Wallgren, one of my oldest childhood friends, on some hot topics, like diversity, discrimination, Cancel Culture, #METoo, Political Correctness & More
Leah is the Executive Administrator of Twin Cities Diversity in Practice. She holds a Master's degree in Social Responsibility & Sustainable Communities and a graduate certificate in Gender & Women's Studies from Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green, KY and a Bachelor's degree in Cultural Studies from University of the Incarnate Word in San Antonio, TX. Leah's career has taken her from working with actors in Chicago, to mental health professionals in all over Minnesota, and to now attorneys in the Twin Cities. When she isn't working, Leah loves to read, travel, talk about culture and social issues, show off pictures of her fur babies, and hang out with her parents' llamas.
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Jenna Redfield is the leader of the Twin Cities Collective, the largest resource in the Twin Cities for bloggers, small business, entrepreneurs & creatives. She is a well known speaker, educator & social media strategist. You can work with her one on one with coaching and content creation (photo/video) services
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I'm your host Jenna Redfield, and today I have a very special guest, my longtime childhood friend Leah Walgreen. She is the executive administrator at Twin Cities diversity and practice. Welcome, Leah. Thanks, Jenna. Excited to be here. Yeah, we are excited to have you. We've known each other since kindergarten. We we're friends all throughout elementary school, middle school, high school, you were in same girl scout troop. That was probably my favorite memories. Leah was completing our silver award together and going up on stage. And we did not have any of the badges badges and all the other girl scouts had because we were kind of lazy. And that was that was in like ninth grade. And we're like, we're done with Girl Scouts. It is high school. For that, yeah. But it's just funny because we've we've stayed, you know, obviously Facebook friends, we didn't see each other for many years between like college and now but I saw her last year. And I found out what she was working with and on. And I thought this was so interesting. So I wanted to have you on. So can you explain a little bit about what you do? And make sure that you talk to close the mic?
Leah Wallgren 1:43
Yeah. Um, so I work for a company called Twin Cities diversity in practice, which is a nonprofit that serves attorneys of color. Well, attorneys in the Twin Cities area, we work with law firms and corporate legal departments to help attract, recruit, advance and retain attorneys of color in the Twin Cities. And we do that through networking events, mentoring programs and professional development. It's
Jenna Redfield 2:11
kind of like what Twin Cities collective does except for specifically the legal world. Yeah. Which was really cool. So how did you get this job?
Leah Wallgren 2:17
Um, I found it on indeed, really? Yeah. And it was just kind of a spur of the moment application. And I was like, Oh, I'm not qualified for this. I could never work there. And then, like, immediately after my now boss emailed me back, and she's like, hey, do you want to come in for an interview? And I was like, Yes. I've been there ever since. Oh, cool.
Jenna Redfield 2:36
So what are your roles there?
Leah Wallgren 2:38
Um, everything. We're a three person team for the summer, because we have an intern. But my main focus is member retention. So when we do our yearly dues, renewal, I take care of that. And then I support my boss, who's the executive director, managing her calendar, and basically doing everything under the sun. Yeah,
Jenna Redfield 3:04
I feel like it's because this is a small business and kind of a jack of all trades, Jill, of all trades. So I kind of wanted to have you on because I've never covered the topic of diversity in business or diversity in general. And I feel like, because you're working for this company, now you probably have learned or picked up a lot over the last year, how long? Just over here? So what what do you does diversity mean? Or when people ask you what you do at this job? What do you explain like what diversity is, um, so
Leah Wallgren 3:33
particularly, or specifically for my job, we work with attorneys of color, and allies, so people who don't identify as someone of color, but basically what it boils down to is not white, or white presenting. Now, diversity can mean a lot of things. It does mean a lot of things. And it's everything that makes a person's identity theirs and unique. So it could be yours. Gender, your sexual orientation, your class, your ability, diversity, and thought, education. Anything you can think of,
Jenna Redfield 4:10
are you a dog lover, or cat
Unknown Speaker 4:12
Leah Wallgren 4:14
diversity is very broad. So even though there's diversity in our name, a lot of what we work with is inclusion and equity. So how to make people feel like they belong in their organizations, and are they being treated fairly and have the similar opportunities?
Jenna Redfield 4:34
Or the same opportunity? Yeah. So let's talk about that more, because I feel like inclusion is something that it's it's a hot button topic. And I feel like diversity in general. And I love that you explained all the different ways. So
Leah Wallgren 4:49
there's a lot of resources out there for hiring more diverse people. Or if you're a vendor, requiring you work with people who take diversity seriously. So I know in the law world, some corporation or corporate legal departments require that the team on a law firm side that works with them has either x amount of diverse attorneys and diverse attorneys and women and just having that expectation, like right away. It may be that only one person of color is on your team. And that's okay. But as long as there's the mindset that either to
Jenna Redfield 5:36
like but you're not discriminating against someone, you're trying to be more open minded, and thinking it's more of the conscience is thinking about the fact that, Oh, we don't have a very diverse team, we need to have multiple different voices almost. Because I think a lot of people don't get afforded even the opportunity sometimes. So like, what is some of the barriers to entry, even into maybe the legal field or certain things maybe when it's whether or not it's going to college that certain maybe groups aren't able to get into
Leah Wallgren 6:04
that that is a major barrier. So a lot of I work with a lot of law students, and many of them are first generation law students, or even going through college. And so one thing is that I know, a lot of organizations in town and across the country have pipeline programs. So that's a program that is geared towards getting kids and students into law. And there's one in town here called Joyce preschool, which is preschool level, starting the pipeline early all the way through high school. And actually one of the research projects I did for work recently was looking at pipeline programs focused on undergrad level, and they do exist, but not really on the Twin Cities. There's a you, but they're very specific to like the EU has their own for their own law school. So that is a barrier. And just another one would be seeing lawyer like in the law field, seeing attorneys that look like you is also a barrier, which is why we were just trying to create more opportunities. Yeah, people.
Jenna Redfield 7:22
Do you have? I don't know, I didn't really ask you to prepare this. But do you have any like stats on home? Like, how many people in the Twin Cities are have? Like, is it? Like, is it under 25%? Like, what is kind of the general?
Leah Wallgren 7:35
Are we talking?
Jenna Redfield 7:37
Like maybe just maybe just in LA because I feel like just saying it out loud makes it seem real. Like I think when I always talk about I worked in the film industry in LA. And so I always think about the gender roles in there. And like only I think there's only been like three people ever nominated for Best Director, as a woman, like that's just like, it's just very, very, very low. And there's just certain statistics that just kind of make you like sit back and be like, Oh, my goodness, this isn't an issue that we need to be talking about. And I think in any field, maybe not just law, but like any field, there are so many people that haven't been afforded the opportunity or haven't gotten access. And I think that's kind of what your businesses doing is kind of is it figuring out? At what point? Does it go awry, and they don't have the opportunity. So you're almost starting, like at the preschool level? And kind of figuring out that you said the pipeline, is that something you guys work on? Or how does it all work to try to get more people in?
Leah Wallgren 8:36
Yeah, so we're not quite at the preschool level, we focus on law students, and then upward. A lot of our programming historically has been for law students. So ensuring that they get opportunities we run for summer employment. So we run a program for first year law clerks. So it's their first summer after their first last year, and where they will clerk at a law firm and for half the summer, and then clerk at a corporate legal department for the summer. So they get that experience on both ends. And then we also have mentorship programs for them with our younger attorneys, or younger meaning recently out of law school. What we're seeing is it's not hard to bring people to the Twin Cities and work here. It's or even Yeah, bring them in and work for our firms in corporate legal departments. What we're seeing is a gap in advancement and retention. So people will come. But a
Jenna Redfield 9:39
lot of people will leave interesting. And I do have stats. Okay, yeah. Oh, that's fine. No, no, no, we can add those in the show notes, which is great. So basically, what does having more people you mentioned, like seeing people, like you don't even in the movies, you see someone that looks like you and it inspires you? How does that help the current maybe Hi, college students want to pursue law, they see more people that look like them as lawyers.
Leah Wallgren 10:06
And then it takes away the pressure of being the first. And also, it's, it's a lot easier to connect with people that look like you. And so it just makes it? Well, for some people, it can make it a lot less intimidating, a lot more achievable. And then there's probably people with your you're more assured that there are people with similar thought as you or similar life experiences that you can relate to while you're going through. Yeah,
Jenna Redfield 10:34
because I've heard that there's an issue with sometimes in the law field, when it comes to actually defending someone for a crime, there tends to be almost some issues there to finding someone that will take on your case, you know, is that something you deal with to?
Leah Wallgren 10:51
Not specifically but I'm sure that plays in
Jenna Redfield 10:54
Yeah, cuz I just I've just heard that, that that there's an issue even with the people being good lawyers, you know, the at least Criminal Lawyers are defending people. And sometimes that's a discrepancy to have people that maybe can understand what they're going through. So let's talk a little bit more about, I wanted to dig into the idea of political correctness. And I don't know if you know much about this, but I just thought it was something to talk about with social media. I feel like a lot of people are struggling to talk about things without feeling like they're going to be judged or persecuted or cancelled. I love that term. Because it's just, if you can know exactly what people are talking about, they're just cancelled. So how do we as a society, talk about things more openly without fear of judgment?
Leah Wallgren 11:40
And yeah, correctness? Very good question. And I am definitely guilty of canceling. Okay, well, in my mind, not vocally on the internet, but if somebody says something that is, like, some way against my beliefs, I'm just, I'm done with you. I don't, I don't want to deal with you anymore. But I also if somebody because everybody makes mistakes, nobody is perfect. You're probably going to say something, eventually, that's going to lose followers in some capacity, because, you know, it's just gonna happen. Yeah, um, but if the person shows that they're actively working to correct the wrong, if they're open and honest about what they did, and then down the line, you can see improvements are and you know, that they're trying, then they might not get those followers back. But people are going to respect you more. Yeah. So that's what, and I was having a similar conversation with somebody this weekend about an actor who fell from grace in the 90s. Because he said something bad. And in my eyes, he never made any reparations to correct his behavior. And so it's like, I don't know, I don't have any time for you. Yeah, people are talking look like they said, It's such a shame. It's so sad that he's still blacklisted. And well, maybe it is. Yeah. So he didn't try to true
Jenna Redfield 13:09
right. Do you think it is the after what happens after your maybe pointed out to, you know, like, someone pointed out, and I think that that is so true of I can think of like so many in my mind, and like one of the big things that happened in the last few years is the me to movement. And I think that is something I never talked about on the podcast. It's something that but it's so like, it's not just Hollywood, it's everywhere. It's and I'm wondering, is that something a lot of the people that you work with deal with a lot of the women are dealing with maybe, I don't know, like I just I feel like in the LA realm, it's harder as a woman like it's just it's it's still an uphill battle for a lot of women to get hired. You know?
Leah Wallgren 13:49
Yeah. And and so we don't specifically work with women's issues. But we do work with
Jenna Redfield 13:55
a lot of women of color.
Leah Wallgren 13:56
Yeah. And and the numbers for women of color are pretty slim for partner level attorney level. So we are trying to help as well.
Jenna Redfield 14:10
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Leah Wallgren 15:30
Okay, so according to the 2018 now report, which is the National Association of legal professionals, women, minorities and LGBT key lawyers made overall gains in 2018, compared to 2017. And black associates remained below the 2009 pre recession levels. So there are more women, minorities and LGBT, he lawyers since last year, but are 2017. But there's still a long way to go. And so compared to all partners in firms, women make up 23.36%, which isn't a very big number. But in Minnesota, we're doing even better with 29.1%. So there's a long way to go. Yeah.
There's like a little
Jenna Redfield 16:25
top. Yeah, and I think I mean, 5050 is a goal, right? Yeah, for everything. And I think a lot of people are just the quality is like the goal, I think for everything. And I think it's it's not like women have to do better than men, it's more of just be having the same opposite Exactly. men sitting at the same tables, and they talk about boards. And I know, like in California, they have a new law that you have to have at least like certain percentage of your Barbie women and by like a certain date. So that was I think it's good idea. I mean, I, I think that it provides two different perspectives on no matter what company you work for, and I think women owned businesses honestly are growing like crazy, because we haven't been given a seat at the table. And we still aren't. So we're like, screw this, I want to start my own companies. I think that's what like, I get excited about starting a business because I think it's, it's a way for you to show your skills. If you're not offered that position. I don't know, I just think that's something that's really cool. But also, like we should still be pushing in corporate America for those spots. So one thing I want to ask about is, like people's backgrounds and biases. I know we both grew up in a very white school and area. And I just want to know, like, how did that affect you? And how did that affect the way that you see the world?
Leah Wallgren 17:48
That's a very good question. Um, so growing up where we grew up, one of the things that I didn't always talk about is that I am a person of color. And it was pretty obvious because I was a lot more tan then. School. Yeah, um, but I also pass this white. So that was really easy for me to navigate socially. But internally, it was hard. And I often found myself playing the role of like, when somebody made a joke that was off color, I would probably make the same joke and it being a kid not excusable. But so like with that I've grown from it. talking back to political correctness. Yeah, I know that that Yeah. Okay, anymore. And it wasn't until I left Minnesota. And to me leaving Minnesota meant diversity, because I meant leaving Minnesota meant leaving our suburb, not even going downtown, it was just leaving
Mina tacos a great place to live. It was like,
um, but I moved to Texas. Yeah, I went to school down there in, I went to my university was majority Hispanic, which I am not, but everybody thought that I was. So I was pretty funny. A lot of people would just speak Spanish to me, and I'm like, what, I don't speak Spanish. And then I moved to Chicago, which was a lot more diverse than back home. And one of the best experiences of my life, just living with so many different people. And, and I really, it really changed my perspective, especially living in the city, then I am not afraid to walk around anymore. And just working with different kinds of people that I didn't necessarily see growing up, made me realize all were the same. Yeah, we're different. But don't be scared to two people who are different than you. Especially if they look different than you and and also made me feel a lot more comfortable. Understanding my own background and culture and embracing being a person of color. Yeah.
Jenna Redfield 20:03
Because I know that there are, I mean, this is a whole nother topic, but there are even segregated parts of the city. Oh, yeah. You know, like, RR where we lived was very segregated with a lot of white people. And then there's parts of the city that are, you know, more Hispanic or more, you know, Asian, or African American. And it's just, I feel like by actually stepping outside of that, you know, part you learn, I was just in Boston this weekend. And I couldn't, I wasn't, I was surprised, you know, I have my, you know, biases about Boston, I thought was going to be all Italian and Jewish people are, you know, like, that's just what's in the movies. And it's, like, so diverse there. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is not what I thought of Boston, because I just grew up watching, you know, movies about the mafia, or whatever, you know, so like, for me, by actually going there and experience the culture, I felt like I learned a lot about what current day Boston is like, and I'm sure that's the same with you is like stepping outside of that bubble that, you know, maybe we grew up in, or maybe if you are from a small town in Minnesota, where it's like, maybe there's like 100 people, like you just I feel like by moving somewhere else, it really does affect your view of where you from. And I think that everyone should move out of state at some point, and you can always come back, but I love that. That's what I know. And again, like I lived in LA for six months. And I learned a lot about you know, but it was weird, because everyone in LA is a transplant. That's the only thing I learned, you know, so it's just like, but I feel like for you going to San Antonio, where there was a lot of probably people from San Antonio, you probably felt like an outsider for the first time.
Leah Wallgren 21:37
Yeah. Well, it was weird. I found the three Minnesotans on campus. And one of two of them I was like, strangely had connections. Yeah. Has everybody in Minnesota has Connect? Yeah, for sure. Um, but yeah, that was very strange. Because, like, everyone, it will a lot of people that I went to school with, were to Hannah, which, so they, their families dated back pre Texas being part of the United States. And so it's like, they're Texan, they're American. But they're not in their Mexican, but they're like, also Tejano. So it's like this whole nother layer that I just could not understand what I look like, learning from them. Now what like when I was there was like, What? What is this?
Jenna Redfield 22:26
Yeah, and I know you. You told me last year when I saw you, you did the DNA test, right? Oh, yeah, I did. What was your results?
Leah Wallgren 22:34
Oh, so I am
the one thing that they knew for sure. Well, it's ancestry. So 23andme? Yeah, like, for sure. Finger quotes is that I am 20% Irish or British, which was really cool. Because that's like, the one thing I knew, and but I am Hawaiian in the way that the test came out was that because Hawaii is an amalgam there are Native Hawaiian people. But like, predating that I'm Filipino. Oh, and I knew that I had Asian roots. So broadly Asian, because they don't have enough information. And then also said Native American.
Jenna Redfield 23:21
I think I do that. Yeah. Cuz you originally from Arizona? Yep. And so and you were adopted. So that's something that I feel like, when I first met you, I was like, I guess I just didn't even think yeah, that you were not white. Yeah, you know, and that's the thing is like, as a six year old? Yeah. Like, I just that wasn't like a concept that, you know, we knew, and so I was just like, oh, that's my friend Leah, who lives down the street from me. Like that was just, you know, like, and we like, it's just so interesting to me that like, going through one of the things I don't know if you know, this I in college, I went on this civil rights tour, that's so cool. The south and wow, I was a purposefully diverse trip, they had a lot of the people I went to, again, another very white college. And so they had a lot of the people of color. And then the people that weren't of color were there to kind of like learn. And do. It was a lot of deep discussions about race. Yeah, and I have never learned so much in a week in my life about, but it wasn't just learning about the history of America and the history of the South, it was hearing their stories, and even their stories at a school, like the one I went to, which was, again, majority white students, and it was just super eye opening to me to know, just the I don't know if it's racism, but it's just the just the way that people have to do twice as much work to actually be seen as equal or even to be safe in their environments. So like, let's just talk a little bit about that and and how people can overcome those obstacles that the world has set up for them. Is that something you guys help to with people is is overcoming those barriers?
Leah Wallgren 25:06
Yeah. So that's actually what we, we do a lot of our professional development work around those topics. One thing or one event that we have coming up at the end of August is about imposter syndrome. So talking about that topic. Yes. So excited. I love
Jenna Redfield 25:23
that topic. So what are you going to? Do you do any speaking or is it mostly the executive director? How involved? Are you a higher Oh, okay. So you're just helping put on the event? Yes,
Leah Wallgren 25:34
gotcha. My, the executive director, she, she does a lot more. My role within it is more
Jenna Redfield 25:41
important. Yes. But you you kind of have a hand in everything. So you kind of know what's going on? Yes. Um, but it's interesting. I mean, you said you love that topic. What What, what do you think I actually want to do it do a podcast episode about imposter syndrome? Because I think it is. So I know, I actually have a friend who's an imposter syndrome coach. So I'm going gonna have her on probably at some point. But it's just interesting, because I think all of us especially like, when we're young, I think in our 20s, especially like, maybe the college students or the law school students, they I feel like it takes a long time for us to really understand who we are. So is that is it is a major factor. Do you think an imposter syndrome or is it experience? What do you what do you think personally,
Leah Wallgren 26:23
I think it's everything? Yeah, it's just how our culture is set up. I'm just having this conversation saying, I'm a person of color, I'm already experiencing imposter syndrome, really? Because I don't necessarily outwardly reject, or look it. So I think it's just it. This is no simple answer for it. It just is so ingrained.
Jenna Redfield 26:47
And I think we don't talk about it enough. I feel like we like read articles on the internet about imposter syndrome. But we don't bring it up in conversation. And I don't think we talk about diversity in conversation, either unless it's an issue you unless there's like an event yet causes you to Yes. And I think that, well, I'll be honest, and say, people have actually called me out recently for not having enough people of color on the podcast. And I like that just I look back, and I'm like I have, but is it not enough? And it's like, for me, my biggest fear is that I am not doing enough. Because I mean, the point of Twin Cities collective is to be inclusive. And I never want to exclude anyone. And it's like, I'm thinking about the topic, sometimes more than I'm thinking about the speaker speaker, because I'm like, I want to find the best speaker, because I'm thinking topic first. And I just, but maybe it's I just know more white people like and that's the other thing that I want to talk about is how do we step outside of those zones we're in where we just know certain types of people and actually meet people that are different from us is that something that's part of your business, too,
Unknown Speaker 27:54
that's something that I prepared for, Oh, nice, nice,
Leah Wallgren 27:57
is an important step I'm so there is actually I don't know if I haven't done dug deep enough to see if there's speakers for topics specifically. But if you are a business, and you want to increase your increase diversity, but you're not hiring, one way that you can do is support vendors that are diverse. So I'll send you a link to this after we're done. But there is a spreadsheet called support bypass and FTW, which is black indigenous people of color and femme, trans women, businesses and communities. And it is a grassroots Google Doc of all of these organizations in the Twin Cities area, from catering to venue rental to anything you can think of I think they might have speakers as well on there. Yeah. That are local, local, yeah, and can work with you. So just making an effort to do your research. So if you have a topic coming up, and all you can think of are white speakers, that's not bad by any means. But going the extra mile to see if there is a person of color, or somebody who's LGBT q men could talk shoe. And then that's a starting point.
Jenna Redfield 29:23
So So if someone said, like feels like they're being discriminated against, or maybe they see another person is discriminating, and someone, what are the steps to take to talk about that and get through that.
Leah Wallgren 29:34
So if you're the person that's experiencing it, and depending on what it is, you might just brush it off, because it's just happened so many times that you might not even notice it. But be sure to take care of yourself. However, that is, if you feel comfortable, and it's in a work setting, go talk to your HR, if they're not in a work, or if you are in a work setting, but you don't feel comfortable seek counsel outside of that. There are a lot of resources out there to help with that. And if you are the person experiencing someone else being discriminated against, and you're in a position where it's possible, stick up for them, call the person out. Offer to talk to the person who was discriminated against after the fact check in on them. Yeah, we got to look out for each other.
Jenna Redfield 30:29
Yeah. And you mentioned the beginning allies that what an ally is or how do you describe an ally?
Leah Wallgren 30:35
So an ally is somebody who's not in the group that supports the group. And what's important for ally ship is that they don't take front and center in a situation. Yeah, so. So like, in the case of my work, we work with a lot of allies. We are programming is not specifically for attorneys of color, like exclusively culture, and we invite other people to come and attend.
But they're not like the main focus.
Jenna Redfield 31:08
I think that that's a whole nother topic. You know, like, whether you want to stick up for someone, but people only listen to you like, like, I always see that we're like, someone asked a woman like is your husband here or something? And it's just like, you know, that husband could take control, but he could also hand it off to her and say like, no, she's, she's the one you should talk to, or something like that. I just see that happening so much in culture that you being the ally does not mean you're the hero. And I think that it's more of your the supporting person. That's that's maybe being the one to call it out, or the one to draw attention to it. But you're not drawing attention to yourself. You're drawing attention to the issue. Right? Yeah. Okay. Very good description. Yeah. Cuz I feel like, as someone who is not a color, I feel like it's, I don't feel right talking about this. Disaster syndrome. Yeah. I mean, I'm a woman. So I feel like I do get it on a certain level. But I feel like I can't be the voice of it. You know. And I struggle sometimes with people that talk about it so much, but I'm like, but you're not you're not affected by it, you know, and it's, it's, it's you should be giving that voice to someone else that is affected by it. And I struggle with that sometimes. In terms of how do I talk about this without talking about myself? You know? Yep. Awesome. Well, is there any last things you want to mention? Or how if somebody is maybe in law school, listen to this, or they know someone in law school? How do they get in touch with your company,
Leah Wallgren 32:38
you if you want to get in touch with our company, our website, it will be listed on the podcast. And you can also email info inf fo at diversity and practice.org. And that'll come to me and I can connect you that way. And then if you're not in law, but you are curious about other initiatives in the Twin Cities, specifically for diverse people who are coming here to work, yeah, check out the make it NSP initial Yeah. They're all over the place. And they're always hosting free workshops. So I've learned a lot from them.
Jenna Redfield 33:18
Yeah, I've met a few people that work there. And it's I've actually wanted to collaborate with them. Because I feel like they're they have a similar mission about Twin Cities collective. And we're all in the Twin Cities, so I might as well. Are they government funded? I feel like they might be
Leah Wallgren 33:30
yes, I correct me. Well, we can look. Yeah, I agree.
Jenna Redfield 33:37
Yeah, okay. Initially, I'm pretty sure they are. So that's like really awesome. Because I think that's trying to get people to move here pretty much too, right? Yeah.
Leah Wallgren 33:43
There's a forecasted workplace workforce shortage a few years from now, I don't remember the date. So this is actively trying to bring people in to the Twin Cities, but they're focusing on diverse
Jenna Redfield 33:58
contracts. That make sense. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Leah, for coming today. Your first ever podcast. I did it. And we'll all See you next week on the next episode. Bye.
Thanks for listening to the twins collective podcast with Jenna Redfield. For full podcast transcriptions, show notes and more about what we offer it turns this collective head to Twin Cities collective.com. Make sure to join our Facebook group, follow us on Instagram, subscribe on Apple podcasts and Spotify. Special thanks to studio Americana for recording and producing this podcast. And thanks to Nicola high list for the use of the song and the internet troll will see you next time.